There were several comments and exchanges among members. Some
members requested Ruel to bring me into the group so I can reply to their questions
and additional comments. I was added (I seldom join discussion groups in
facebook as my fb wall and that of my friends’ are already my discussion platforms,
usually I am added by some friends) yesterday.
Below are the relevant exchanges. There were other minor
comments and digressions, but I won’t include them here. This is long already,
six pages, 2,400+ words. So get your coffee or soda and enjoy the ride. I am
also posting the two tables in that article for additional guidance to the
exchange. Despite our debate, I am happy that Kensi gave me implicit permission
to blog this exchange. Enjoy!
--------------
Ruel
Chavez "The bad news is that economic freedom remains rather
restricted in the country until now. The local and national governments here
tend to think that entrepreneurship and job creation is a potentially criminal
thing to do, so they imposed plenty of business permits, taxes and fees, that
sap significant time and resources of entrepreneurs and investors. This is on
top of a very protectionist Constitution that prevents foreign competition to
many local business elites and oligarchies." - Nonoy Oplas
Kensi
Blye-Two This would BOIL DOWN again to "EASE of DOING
BUSINESS..." The SMALL PEOPLE are HEAVILY TAXED but the BIG COMPANIES can
get away with almost anything...
Imagine this:
( 1 ) Corporate Tax 30%
( 2 ) VAT 12%
( 3 ) Withholding Tax
( 4 ) Business Permit from the LGU
( 5 ) BOC - Duties and Taxes for Imported Goods
( 6 ) Other Taxes from other Agencies...
What's left of the MICRO and SMALL Enterprises...?
Imagine this:
( 1 ) Corporate Tax 30%
( 2 ) VAT 12%
( 3 ) Withholding Tax
( 4 ) Business Permit from the LGU
( 5 ) BOC - Duties and Taxes for Imported Goods
( 6 ) Other Taxes from other Agencies...
What's left of the MICRO and SMALL Enterprises...?
Ruel
Chavez Meron naman daw 2 good news base sa report...1. mas mataas
ang ating personal at economic freedom kung ihahambing sa maraming mga bansa at
2. at mas mataas din ang ating personal freedom kung ihahambing sa mga karatig
bansa sa asya tulad ng Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and China.
Vietnam, Laos at Cambodia...
Kensi
Blye-Two Ruel Chavez: FREEDOM is very important, yes... However, you
can have FREEDOM and yet DIRT POOR, what would happen to you...? Singaporeans
and Malaysians RETIRE Millionaires...
In Indonesia, India, and China, Vietnam- citizens are going up the ladder and there's a significant burgeoning sector... Well, we can say that we're on par with Laos and Cambodia in terms of FIGHTING POVERTY...
In Indonesia, India, and China, Vietnam- citizens are going up the ladder and there's a significant burgeoning sector... Well, we can say that we're on par with Laos and Cambodia in terms of FIGHTING POVERTY...
Ruel
Chavez actually, yan din ang tanong ko...matanong ko nga yong
nagsulat ng article na yan kung ano ang isasagot...
Ruel
Chavez Sorry Kensi, matagal yong response ng sumulat ng article...only
this morning at pasensiya medyo strong yong dating niya...this is his reply:
"It is obvious that you just open your mouth without
reading what you are commenting on. Check again Table 2 of that article,
Singapore has very high economic freedom than the Philippines, 2nd to HK
worldwide. So more economic freedom, more prosperity. Philippines which has
more business bureaucracies (about 16 procedures just to start a business vs.
only 4-5 in HK and Sing.) has more poverty. Malaysia has about similar econ freedom
score as the Philippines.
"What the article discussed is the Index of Human Freedom, which is composite of economic freedom + personal freedom. In Singapore for instance, one can criticize the government in private occasions, say within dinner table, but not in the newspaper, not in rallies of even 10 people, not in blogs, not in public seminars, not in public concerts, so many NOs and prohibitions. Besides, it is one (pol) party system there. The same in Malaysia where almost all the TV stations, almost all newspapers, radios, are owned by the government. They held several elections, only the last one, the 13th General Elections (GE 13) that there was a credible political opposition to challenge the administration for the first time ever, and the opposition was clubbed with various cheating.
"Freedom means absence of coercion. But freedom is not absolute, one cannot stab or shoot people simply because he does not like their faces, so such freedom to harm other people is restricted and prohibited. So freedom means people can do whatever they want, except harming other people. When government puts up various bureaucracies and imposes various taxes, fees, penalties and mandatory contributions if people would put up a barber shop or bread shop or clothes retail shop as if entrepreneurship is a criminal thing to do, then that is restricting freedom."
"What the article discussed is the Index of Human Freedom, which is composite of economic freedom + personal freedom. In Singapore for instance, one can criticize the government in private occasions, say within dinner table, but not in the newspaper, not in rallies of even 10 people, not in blogs, not in public seminars, not in public concerts, so many NOs and prohibitions. Besides, it is one (pol) party system there. The same in Malaysia where almost all the TV stations, almost all newspapers, radios, are owned by the government. They held several elections, only the last one, the 13th General Elections (GE 13) that there was a credible political opposition to challenge the administration for the first time ever, and the opposition was clubbed with various cheating.
"Freedom means absence of coercion. But freedom is not absolute, one cannot stab or shoot people simply because he does not like their faces, so such freedom to harm other people is restricted and prohibited. So freedom means people can do whatever they want, except harming other people. When government puts up various bureaucracies and imposes various taxes, fees, penalties and mandatory contributions if people would put up a barber shop or bread shop or clothes retail shop as if entrepreneurship is a criminal thing to do, then that is restricting freedom."
Kensi
Blye-Two Ruel Chavez: Perhaps you can INVITE the Author in here so
that he can further ENLIGHTEN us with his Article... We might even learn a
thing or two from him...
Here' my reply to his comment:
Here' my reply to his comment:
It would serve him well if he focus on the TOPIC rather than making "out of place side comments" for self-aggrandizement purposes...
( 1 ) As what the Author has stated, his Index of Human Freedom is composed of two variables- PERSONAL FREEDOM and ECONOMIC FREEDOM... Obviously, the Philippines has MORE of the FORMER than the LATTER... In the Philippines, the citizens can OPENLY CRITICIZE the Government all it's INSTRUMENTALITIES "yet", most Filipinos have a very LOW LEVEL of "ECONOMIC FREEDOM" (Thus, poverty and impoverishment abound)...
( 2 ) In Asian prosperous Asian Countries, ECONOMIC FREEDOM is HIGHER than PERSONAL FREEDOM... Like in Singapore, Hong Kong, and Malaysia, obviously... This is brought about by the FACT that people are more PRE-OCCUPIED with WORK and PRODUCTIVITY that the only time they TALK Politics would be during their FREE TIME... In the Philippines, EVERYBODY talks about Politics with NO PRODUCTIVITY... And people expect to have a GOOD LIFE without WORKING...
( 3 ) Taxes, Fees, and Penalties are PART and PARCEL of any Country... In fact, it's within the power of the GOVERNMENT to LEVY TAXES on people... Just look at Singapore and Malaysia, there are a lot of RESTRICTIONS on PERSONAL FREEDOM but when it comes to ECONOMIC FREEDOM, it's easier to PUT UP A BUSINESS; GET a LOAN or LOOK for a JOB...
The problem in the Philippines would be the following:
( 1 ) HIGH TAX RATE; DOUBLE TAXATION
( 2 ) EASE of DOING BUSINESS is "NOT EASY by any respect..."
( 3 ) LACK of PRODUCTIVITY from the CITIZENRY...
Ruel
Chavez ...I already invited him...
Nonoy
Oplas Thanks Ruell, another fb group out of so many fb groups that
I belong to, hehehe.
To Kensi, it is obvious you are not reading well before commenting. That's strike 2 already.
You wrote, " his Index of Human Freedom is composed of..." Where did you get the idea or illusion that it is MY index of human freedom? Read again the article, I wrote there,
"...Index of Human Freedom is a joint project of three big think tanks advocating more individual freedom and limited government – Fraser Institute in Canada, Liberales Institut in Germany, and Cato Institute in the US." They are the architects in building that new index, I simply wrote to help publicize their new project.
Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom. I wrote, "The bad news is that economic freedom remains rather restricted in the country until now. The local and national governments here tend to think that entrepreneurship and job creation is a potentially criminal thing to do..."
The purpose of that article is to show that are still a laggard in economic freedom, but we should not shoot our feet either with too much self flaggelation.
To Kensi, it is obvious you are not reading well before commenting. That's strike 2 already.
You wrote, " his Index of Human Freedom is composed of..." Where did you get the idea or illusion that it is MY index of human freedom? Read again the article, I wrote there,
"...Index of Human Freedom is a joint project of three big think tanks advocating more individual freedom and limited government – Fraser Institute in Canada, Liberales Institut in Germany, and Cato Institute in the US." They are the architects in building that new index, I simply wrote to help publicize their new project.
Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom. I wrote, "The bad news is that economic freedom remains rather restricted in the country until now. The local and national governments here tend to think that entrepreneurship and job creation is a potentially criminal thing to do..."
The purpose of that article is to show that are still a laggard in economic freedom, but we should not shoot our feet either with too much self flaggelation.
Kensi
Blye-Two Nonoy Oplas: If you WRITE Articles to be taken HOOKLINE and
SINKER by the READERS and you want your Articles to be "Gospel
Truth", then you better change your "frustrated profession in
life..." The purpose of ARTICLES and COMMENTS is for people to CLARIFY and
DISCUSS and not for "self-aggrandizement purposes..."
( 1 ) It was you who presented the IDEA that the Index of Human Freedom is composed of "Personal Freedom + Economic Freedom" which in turn you got from a Study made by a group of Think Tanks... Yes...? Rather than actually REPLYING to the ISSUES and TOPICS raised, you are contending yourself with TRIVIAL and SHALLOW matters...
( 2 ) Did I say that you said: "Filipinos should be SATISFIED with PERSONAL FREEDOM...? It might be good if you not only READ but your also COMPREHEND my comments before making conjectures that I did not even mention...
( 1 ) It was you who presented the IDEA that the Index of Human Freedom is composed of "Personal Freedom + Economic Freedom" which in turn you got from a Study made by a group of Think Tanks... Yes...? Rather than actually REPLYING to the ISSUES and TOPICS raised, you are contending yourself with TRIVIAL and SHALLOW matters...
( 2 ) Did I say that you said: "Filipinos should be SATISFIED with PERSONAL FREEDOM...? It might be good if you not only READ but your also COMPREHEND my comments before making conjectures that I did not even mention...
3 ) Simply PUT, the BARRIERS to ENTRY in any Philippine
Business ENDEAVOR is HIGH but not totally IMPOSSIBLE... Then again, nothing in
LIFE is EASY... If you're diligent and persistent enough, you can PUT UP your
own SMALL BUSINESS and perhaps succeed... There are people who just COMPLAIN
about a lot of things... Then, there are people who just WORK and DO their own
THING...
I mean for a THINK TANK guy, I would have expected you're very familiar about these things...
I mean for a THINK TANK guy, I would have expected you're very familiar about these things...
I am the OWNER of this Group and quite frankly, my
OPINION should not HINDER how people DISCUSS or DEBATE in here...
Haven't you NOTICED...? Instead of actually REPLYING to the POINTS I have raised, you have RELEGATED yourself into PETTY matters...? Why don't you RE-READ my comments and REPLY to my points rather than engaging in "chit-chat...?"
Haven't you NOTICED...? Instead of actually REPLYING to the POINTS I have raised, you have RELEGATED yourself into PETTY matters...? Why don't you RE-READ my comments and REPLY to my points rather than engaging in "chit-chat...?"
Nonoy
Oplas 1. "It was you who presented the IDEA that the Index
of Human Freedom is composed of "Personal Freedom + Economic
Freedom""
WRONG. Not me who presented that idea. Read again the article before commenting, strike 3 na, Kensi. I wrote in that article,
"This week, an important report was released, Towards a Worldwide Index of Human Freedom, January 08, 2013. It is a joint project of three big think tanks advocating more individual freedom and limited government – Fraser Institute..."
2. "Did I say that you said: "Filipinos should be SATISFIED with PERSONAL FREEDOM...?"
WRONG again, strike 4 na Kinse, strike out na. I wrote,
"Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom..."
3. "the BARRIERS to ENTRY in any Philippine Business ENDEAVOR is HIGH but not totally IMPOSSIBLE.." Agree, nowhere in the article or in the exchanges did I say that it is impossible. I wrote there,
"The government should learn to reduce business bureaucracies, reduce the itch for more taxes, permits and fees, and focus on going after real criminals that bully and victimize the average citizens."
At least we are back to the discussion on human freedom. Bakit kasi may digression.
WRONG. Not me who presented that idea. Read again the article before commenting, strike 3 na, Kensi. I wrote in that article,
"This week, an important report was released, Towards a Worldwide Index of Human Freedom, January 08, 2013. It is a joint project of three big think tanks advocating more individual freedom and limited government – Fraser Institute..."
2. "Did I say that you said: "Filipinos should be SATISFIED with PERSONAL FREEDOM...?"
WRONG again, strike 4 na Kinse, strike out na. I wrote,
"Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom..."
3. "the BARRIERS to ENTRY in any Philippine Business ENDEAVOR is HIGH but not totally IMPOSSIBLE.." Agree, nowhere in the article or in the exchanges did I say that it is impossible. I wrote there,
"The government should learn to reduce business bureaucracies, reduce the itch for more taxes, permits and fees, and focus on going after real criminals that bully and victimize the average citizens."
At least we are back to the discussion on human freedom. Bakit kasi may digression.
Kensi
Blye-Two Nonoy Oplas:
It was YOU who started the SIDE COMMENTS rather than going directly to the TOPIC at hand...
( 1 ) Alright, since you just COPIED your IDEA of the Index of Human Freedom- then why don't you ENLIGHTEN US with how it works and what are the VARIABLES involved in such a INDEX that's quantifiable- again, ACCORDING to where you've COPIED the IDEA... (or shall I say BORROWED)...? BULLSEYE 1...
( 2 ) Since you said: "Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom...What then should the Filipinos be SATISFIED with and CONTEND with...? BULLSEYE 2...
( 3 ) Since you seem to have all sorts of GREAT and BRILLIANT IDEAS then why don't you lay down your suggestions:
( A ) On ways for the government to reduce it's Business BUREAUCRACIES...?
( B ) What types of TAXES were you talking about...?
( C ) Cite specific PERMITS and FEES...?
( D ) How do you propose the Government RUN AFTER the REAL CRIMINALS...?
It was YOU who started the SIDE COMMENTS rather than going directly to the TOPIC at hand...
( 1 ) Alright, since you just COPIED your IDEA of the Index of Human Freedom- then why don't you ENLIGHTEN US with how it works and what are the VARIABLES involved in such a INDEX that's quantifiable- again, ACCORDING to where you've COPIED the IDEA... (or shall I say BORROWED)...? BULLSEYE 1...
( 2 ) Since you said: "Nowhere in my article did I say that Filipinos should be satisfied with high score in personal freedom...What then should the Filipinos be SATISFIED with and CONTEND with...? BULLSEYE 2...
( 3 ) Since you seem to have all sorts of GREAT and BRILLIANT IDEAS then why don't you lay down your suggestions:
( A ) On ways for the government to reduce it's Business BUREAUCRACIES...?
( B ) What types of TAXES were you talking about...?
( C ) Cite specific PERMITS and FEES...?
( D ) How do you propose the Government RUN AFTER the REAL CRIMINALS...?
Nonoy Oplas 1. "why don't you ENLIGHTEN US with how it works and what are the VARIABLES involved."
Commenting without reading, strike 5. Check Table 1 of the article,
“Table 1. Structure of the personal freedom index… Government’s threat to a person… Society’s threat to a person…”
“Table 1. Structure of the personal freedom index… Government’s threat to a person… Society’s threat to a person…”
 |
| Table 1. Structure of the Personal Freedom Index |
2. “What then should the Filipinos be SATISFIED with and CONTEND with..?”
Individuals, Filipinos or foreigners, have different
sources of satisfaction and contentment. I am not a socialist or central
planner who can dictate what can satisfy people.
3. “why don't you lay down your suggestions:
( A ) On ways for the government to reduce it's Business BUREAUCRACIES...?”
3. “why don't you lay down your suggestions:
( A ) On ways for the government to reduce it's Business BUREAUCRACIES...?”
Here’s one presentation, powerpoint,
“( B ) What types of TAXES were you talking
about...? “
Income taxes can be drastically cut,
Income taxes can be drastically cut,
Signing off, will blog this exchange. I hope that people
are brave enough to stand by their statements, cheers.
Kensi
Blye-Two Nonoy Oplas:
( 1 ) I see that the Philippines is No. 67 in the LIST... What are your POLICY and ADVOCACY suggestion in order for the Philippines to improve it's Freedom Index... Perhaps CONCRETE POLICY MEASURES...?
( 2 ) Then you have NO WAY of KNOWING whether the Filipinos are actually SATISFIED with their CURRENT "ECONOMIC STATE...?" After all, since "satisfaction is very subjective", a family of 10 could eat "FOOD from the TRASH BINS day-in, day-out", they they are SATISFIED- would you call that being CONTENTED...?
( 1 ) I see that the Philippines is No. 67 in the LIST... What are your POLICY and ADVOCACY suggestion in order for the Philippines to improve it's Freedom Index... Perhaps CONCRETE POLICY MEASURES...?
( 2 ) Then you have NO WAY of KNOWING whether the Filipinos are actually SATISFIED with their CURRENT "ECONOMIC STATE...?" After all, since "satisfaction is very subjective", a family of 10 could eat "FOOD from the TRASH BINS day-in, day-out", they they are SATISFIED- would you call that being CONTENTED...?
( 3 ) The ONLY CONCRETE suggestion I've seen is a FLAT
INCOME TAX RATE... =)) Even your suggestion on the REDUCTION of NATIONAL and
LOCAL Business Permits, Taxes, and Fees are VAGUE... No CONCRETE steps... =))
Say, the Government CUTS INCOME TAXES, where would you
get the TAX DEFICIENCY that would be BROUGHT about by SUCH a MOVE...?
---------
I did not reply to those additional questions anymore.
For interested readers, the answers area already in my previous blog posts. For
instance,
1. Concrete Policy Measures – see the original “Minimal Government
Manifesto” in March 2004, outlined a few detailed policy proposals, with
comments by many people, 14 pages long,
2. Income tax cut. towards zero, and shift to
consumption-based and transaction taxes,
Thanks for the exchange, Kensi. Still, my advice to you
and other debaters remain: To avoid unnecessary misunderstanding, also for transparency
purposes, learn to read properly,
preferably put in quotation marks the exact sentences and paragraphs made by
the other person that you find disagreeable, and criticize from there.
Cheers.
See also:
Business Bureaucracy 4: How to Reduce It, January 27, 2012
Business Bureaucracy 5: Doing Business 2012 Report, August 28, 2012
Business Bureaucracy 6: Presentation at Rotary Club of Manila Bay, February 01, 2013
Business Bureaucracy 7: Penalizing Small Businesses, February 01, 2013
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