A friend, Arcy Garcia, posted in his facebook wall my recent
paper, Mining
26: Presentation at Rotary Club of Taguig Fort Bonifacio, and invited his
friends from the Alyansa Tigil Mina (ATM) and Philippine Misereor Partnership,
Inc. (PMPI) to comment on it. Only one commented, Mr. Samson Pedragosa, and I’m
glad he did, as Samson has some constructive ideas how to further encourage
responsible mining, not kill it.
Below are our exchanges from July 16-19, 2013 , with
permission from Arcy and Samson that I will use their comments. Thanks Arcy,
Samson. This is six pages long including photos, nearly 3,000 words, enjoy.
Arcy Garcia sa mga kasama sa ATM, PMPI at iba pang
kasama natin sa paglaban sa iresponsableng pagmimina, pwede ba nating sagutin
isa-isa ang artikulong ito? ang may akda ay isa sa mga ginagalang kong tao,
kahit pa man malinaw sa kanya na siya ay pro-capitalism at neo-liberalism....
Samson Pedragosa This presentation assumes that
mining in this country is done responsibly. I have serious reservations about
the sildes on Rio Tuba. Like the writer, I have been too the place, not once
but many times. But I agree with the author that no mining is not an option.
Choosing where to mine should be done, again responsibly. The author also used
the so-called "stone age argument" about cars and laptops, etc. This argument
reeks of arrogance and deserve to be responded with the
eat-your-ore-till-you-choke reposte that does not add anything positive on the
discourse on mining versus conservation ek-ek. Between mining and agriculture,
the choice is clear. Finally, not to tax mining and instead settle for spoons
and forks, well, you be the judge. And Chile, where in the world is that? It
may be just a narrow strip of land but it is part of one of the biggest
landmass in this planet (American Continent). The Philippines? We are just a
string of islands and islets serving as the first line of defense from the
wrath of the Pacific Ocean.
Nonoy Oplas Hi Samson, to your points.
1. This presentation assumes that mining in this country is done responsibly.
--> Wrong. If you imply me suggesting that "all miining done responsibly", I made zero statement about that. Please provide an exact quote where I made a statement to that effect.
2. "stone age argument"... reeks of arrogance and deserve to be responded with the eat-your-ore-till-you-choke reposte
--> the photo is shown there -- "STOP MINING!!!" Those people can modernize with zero mining.
3. Between mining and agriculture, the choice is clear.
--> Commenting without reading. It's there, "Should be no conflict between the two. But labor productivity and income per worker is larger in LSMM..."
4. not to tax mining and instead settle for spoons and forks,
--> The exact sentence is "People benefit from it (mining) even if taxes are zero... cellphones and laptops, cars and airplanes...they all came from mining."
5. Chile, where in the world is that?
--> $40 B mining exports per year could be "nothing" to some people. But here, a $20 B per year OFW remittance is already a big thing. Chile earns twice from that remittances, even if they export not a single citizen anywhere around the world.
--> $67 B in new investments until 2017, on top of existing investments, vs. $12 B investments in PH. Yes, all those numbers and money are nothing, cool.
1. This presentation assumes that mining in this country is done responsibly.
--> Wrong. If you imply me suggesting that "all miining done responsibly", I made zero statement about that. Please provide an exact quote where I made a statement to that effect.
2. "stone age argument"... reeks of arrogance and deserve to be responded with the eat-your-ore-till-you-choke reposte
--> the photo is shown there -- "STOP MINING!!!" Those people can modernize with zero mining.
3. Between mining and agriculture, the choice is clear.
--> Commenting without reading. It's there, "Should be no conflict between the two. But labor productivity and income per worker is larger in LSMM..."
4. not to tax mining and instead settle for spoons and forks,
--> The exact sentence is "People benefit from it (mining) even if taxes are zero... cellphones and laptops, cars and airplanes...they all came from mining."
5. Chile, where in the world is that?
--> $40 B mining exports per year could be "nothing" to some people. But here, a $20 B per year OFW remittance is already a big thing. Chile earns twice from that remittances, even if they export not a single citizen anywhere around the world.
--> $67 B in new investments until 2017, on top of existing investments, vs. $12 B investments in PH. Yes, all those numbers and money are nothing, cool.
Nonoy Oplas Meanwhile, please answer these
points taken from the presentation, all answerable by Yes or No, then expound
why:
1. Do you recognize that "responsible mining" is possible and being done by some large scale mining firms?
2. Deadweight loss can happen if mining taxes are further increased?
3. Declining tax revenue as tax rates are increased can happen, as suggested by the Laffer curve?
4. There are more taxes, fees, mandatory social spending, in large-scale mining than in any other sectors and industries in the Philippines?
5. Do you recognize that LSMM surrender almost half of their net income to the government, exclusive of SDMP, while small scale mining pay zero to the national government?
6. Local tax collection of P22,000 for one whole year from small scale mining in the case of Benguet province is fine?
7. Reducing the number of mining taxes and fees from a dozen plus to just 3-4 is possible, and still contribute 25% of total government revenues, like what the Chile government has experienced?
8. Just 2% of total land area with mining contracts/permits is big already?
9. Raising mining tax revenue more than 4x from $400 M in 2011 to $1.8 B in 2018 even without raising the tax rate is a bad thing?
10. "The things that we need, if they cannot be grown, they must be mined" is a correct statement?
Thank you.
1. Do you recognize that "responsible mining" is possible and being done by some large scale mining firms?
2. Deadweight loss can happen if mining taxes are further increased?
3. Declining tax revenue as tax rates are increased can happen, as suggested by the Laffer curve?
4. There are more taxes, fees, mandatory social spending, in large-scale mining than in any other sectors and industries in the Philippines?
5. Do you recognize that LSMM surrender almost half of their net income to the government, exclusive of SDMP, while small scale mining pay zero to the national government?
6. Local tax collection of P22,000 for one whole year from small scale mining in the case of Benguet province is fine?
7. Reducing the number of mining taxes and fees from a dozen plus to just 3-4 is possible, and still contribute 25% of total government revenues, like what the Chile government has experienced?
8. Just 2% of total land area with mining contracts/permits is big already?
9. Raising mining tax revenue more than 4x from $400 M in 2011 to $1.8 B in 2018 even without raising the tax rate is a bad thing?
10. "The things that we need, if they cannot be grown, they must be mined" is a correct statement?
Thank you.
Samson Pedragosa 1. Yes. Responsible mining
is possible. In fact, I advocate that it should be done here.
2. Yes. But the Philippines is way far from that. We
still have to optimize the tax take from mining.
Yes. Of course, But again, we are still very far from
that point in the curve.
Small-scale mining is as destructive as large-scale
mining, but I have doubts in the surrender of almost half of the net income of
the LSM companies. in 2007, I worked with the COMP in mining advocacy, and they
are also in fact willing to look into this so they will know how much taxes are
really paid and where they go. We also tried to invite the EITI and a third
party, to help us monitor.
As I said, SSM is as destructive as LSM and must be
regulated as well.
We need to get the good players to do this. But what we
have right now are the "juniors" who like to do the dirty jobs.
2% includes only those with actual operations but if you
look at the map, pending applications comprise a mosaic of the whole country.
This to me is not responsible. We really have to establish no-go zones. The tax
rate really needs looking into. We need to get but we deserve. And mining
should be made an integral part of the whole national development agenda.
Of course, the things we could not grow, we need to mine.
But again, it should be done responsibly. And with responsible mining, I do not
mean merely doing CSR, building some classrooms there, some roads here, etc..
No, responsible mining should be by the people, for the people and of the
people. It should be done in a manner where there is least destruction, and
where the benefits far outweigh the costs, both short-term and long-term.
Finally, responsible mining should be done by responsible miners which we have
very few of. It should be regulated by a strong government not prone to
regulatory capture, but this is something we still have to work out.
Thank you, I hope I made myself clear here. P.S.
Responsible mining should respect rights.
Nonoy Oplas The number has been provided already,
COMP said LSMM paid P11.9 B out of P27.6 B net revenue in 2010, not 2007, or
43% tax and fees payment. So it's already there, it answers your "how much
taxes are really paid." Where they go, Legislators, other politicians and
bureaucrats in government can provide the answer where they spent the money.
Arcy Garcia sa aking palagay, ang ating
posisyon sa anti-mina ay mas tama. ngunit tiyak akong mas tatalas ang ating
argumento kung makikinig sa iba , lalo na sa kabilang panig...tuluy tuloy na
usapan- ...basta ang policy- ang unang umamba (ibig sabihin, gumamit ng
phisycal na lakas, i.e., manigaw, umastang manununtok, bumagsak sa ad hominem
argument, etc.) ay talo sa usapan....ngunit habang nag-uusap at
nagkakatwiranan- ayos..sa dulo, makakatulong ito sa bawat isa, at sa bawat
panig... bilib ako sa sagutan nyo...kailangan natin yan sa demokrasya....
Samson Pedragosa Salamat, Arcy. Pero yun naman
talaga ang tawag sa ganung argumento na inumpisahan mismo ng mga minero -
"stone-age argument" na anila yung mga ayaw sa mina ay dapat
magsimula nang lumakad pabalik sa stone age at huwag gumamit ng kung anuman na
galing sa pagmimina. Ako mismo ay hindi kontra sa pagmimina, kanya lang dapat
sa wastong pamamaraan at dapat patas ang hatian sa kita.
Arcy Garcia ibig sabihin- ang common natin sa
kanila ay- oks ang pagmimina. kailangan nating mga tao at komunidad- ang isyu
lang ay: anong uri ng pagmimina- at ang ating posisyon ay: responsableng
pagmimina- kaya kailangan nating patunayan na ang kasalukuyang pagmimina ng mga
mining firms na ito, na siyang may hawak ng mining industry ay hindi mga responsable...yan
ang ating kailangang patunayan at ipakita sa kanila.....
Nonoy Oplas Kung ang goal ng maraming
activist groups ay "responsible mining", then it is being done by
some -- not all -- large scale mining companies. And it is definitely NOT done
by SSM. If that is the case, it is expected that many activist groups should
demonize SSM more than LSMM. And as shown by data from Chile, LSMM can be (a) a
major contributor to tax collections, 25% of total govt tax revenues, and many
sectors will benefit from such big funding, even if (b) taxes on LSMM are few
and small, unlike the current PH policy of many taxes and fees, and (c) a major
job creator, major source of exports revenues, not sending people abroad.
The numbers and photos are already there. If some people will say that those numbers are wrong, then they should produce the "right" numbers and show the source/s of those correct numbers.
The numbers and photos are already there. If some people will say that those numbers are wrong, then they should produce the "right" numbers and show the source/s of those correct numbers.
Samson Pedragosa Yan mismo Arcy, ang sinabi
ko sa mga kaibigan natin sa COMP, ATM at PMPI. Kailangan natin na mgakasundo
saan ba talaga pwede at paano. Sinabihan ko ang mga taga PMPI at ATM, hindi
pwede ang hindi. Ang sabi ko naman sa mga taga COMP hindi pwedeng abusuhin
ninyo ang kalikasan at mga komunidad, at pag umalma ang komunidad e tatakbo
kayo sa militar at gagamit ng dahas. Hindi rin pwede na daanin na lang sa mga
konswelo di bobo na CSR. Sa iyo naman Noy, mismo sinabi ko sa PMPI at ATM na
dapat bantayan din ang SSM dahil masyado rin itong mapanira.
Nonoy Oplas Then that is a more productive
discourse and action. Expose those who are doing irresponsible mining, both
small and large-scale, and penalize them for their environmental destruction.
Philex has been penalized even though the culprit was heavy flooding and not willful
or deliberate negligence. I have not heard stories of SSM being penalized. In
the AFRIM report (commissioned by Bantay Kita) on SSM in Benguet, it said that
of the 69 SSM operators in the province, only 8 were registered and only 5 were
paying local taxes, they paid P22,000 total for whole year 2010. That is
large-scale violation of local laws by SSM, at least in the province of Benguet.
So when activist groups go to the SC to declare 2 provisions of the Mining Act as "unconstitutional" and declare a stop to some LSMM operations, they are relegating if not avoiding the bigger issue of forcing ALL mining enterprises, small and big, to practice responsible mining -- they (a) pay taxes to local and national govt, (b) institute structures to control mine tailings, (c) provide SDMP and various community devt projects for the impact villages, (d) rehabilitate the mined out areas and reforest, and so on.
So when activist groups go to the SC to declare 2 provisions of the Mining Act as "unconstitutional" and declare a stop to some LSMM operations, they are relegating if not avoiding the bigger issue of forcing ALL mining enterprises, small and big, to practice responsible mining -- they (a) pay taxes to local and national govt, (b) institute structures to control mine tailings, (c) provide SDMP and various community devt projects for the impact villages, (d) rehabilitate the mined out areas and reforest, and so on.
Arcy Garcia kaya ang isa sa mga dapat nating
i-highlight sa mga mining firms, at mga advocates nila ay: sa first stage pa
lang ng mining , soc prep, ang dami na nilang human rights violations na hindi
na dapat magpatuloy....ang mga lumalaban sa pagmimina sa kanilang lugar, (dahil
sa kultura nila ang bundok), ay hindi nila ginagalang--at sa ilang kaso, ay
pinapatay...ang mga kaso ng 2 lider ng PKSM sa Compostela Valley, at sa
Tampakan (mga EJK) ay dapat mahinto..
Nonoy Oplas Then these are criminal cases
that require criminal prosecution. Whether people are killed after a drinking
spree or over a bad joke or over land squatting dispute or over mining land,
killing is killing, regardless of the circumstances and killers should be
penalized as a crime against person, if not a crime against humanity, and not
be diverted to other issues like mining taxes or over foreigners' FTAA
contract.
Arcy Garcia may problema ako sa c Noy. Ang
LGU dapat ang may development program sa area. as long as nagbabayad ng buwis
ang mining firm, at pumasok nang may malinaw na agreement sa mga tao roon- oks
na sa akin yun. at nagbabayad ng tamang sahod sa mga manggagawa roon. ang ayoko
ay sila ang nagpapatayo ng eskwelahan- mga SCR na ginagamit lang
pampapogi...habang kung titignan, sila lang ang kumita...tulad ni Sam, ayoko ng
CSR...
sa mga nabanggit kong cases, mahigpit ang ugnayan ng
mining sa patayan..
Nonoy Oplas Pero nasa batas, Mining Act, ang
(c) SDMP. Re schools, ibang klase Ars. I saw the private school in Rio Tuba, it
is administered by La Salle, it is private yet free to children of employees of
the company, even to some selected children of non-employees. They have modern
apple computers, the students are technologically prepared if they pursue
college education in big schools in Metro Manila. Ganon din sa private
hospital, owned by Rio Tuba, private and yet free to employees and possibly,
some non-employees as there is no government hospital there. The barrio is more
developed -- wide, cemented roads, street lights, well-maintained drainage,
compared to Bataraza town proper. Mas maunlad pa ang barrio kesa sa munisipio.
About the killing, just implement the rule of law. The police should do their work well. Get the perpetrators, produce the evidence and persecute them.
About the killing, just implement the rule of law. The police should do their work well. Get the perpetrators, produce the evidence and persecute them.
Samson Pedragosa I remember, in one meeting
of the COMP which I attended in AIM, the white guy from Rio Tuba stood up and
said "In Rio Tuba, when we started building some school rooms there and
some roads here, the people in the community realized that mining is not such a
bad Idea after all." I replied to him "Yes indeed, communities are
reasonable, deal with them properly and they will cooperate with you, respect
them and they will respect you. It is better to spend more money for the direct
benefits of the community than pay hefty sums to your COMREL people".
Speaking of SSM, unfortunately, both the ATM and the PMPI still have to make a
clear position on it (but I cannot speak for them, although I do meet with
them). But they both realize that SSM is as destructive as LSM. The difficulty
with SSM, as I explained to them, is that SSM is part of the culture of many
indigenous peoples in this country, and we have to respect that. As I observed,
in both ATM and PMPI, there are what I refer to as the "Puritans" and
the "Pragmatists." The former wants to stop all mining, the latter
advocate responsible mining. I guess this is the dilemma haunting both
organizations, they need to find internal balance. I even suggested that ATM
needs to change it name in order to be more reflective of their position
advocating an alternative minerals management policy.
Nonoy Oplas Thanks Samson. We are moving to a
productive discussion. Yes, the term "Tigil Mina" is literal, stop
mining -- small scale or large scale, metallic or non-metallic. Tingin ko halos
konti lang talaga talo sa large-scale, accountable, fullly registered and
transprent mining. They get the soil and rocks, the land area remains there, still
owned by the state and/or Filipino private enterprise. But the tax revenues to
national and local govts, the schools, hospitals, paved roads, street lights,
livelihood projects, skills training, indirect jobs and entrepreneurship,
public markets, etc that serve the needs of employees and officers of the
mining company, etc.
If I were the local government head of a mining area, I won't ask them to cover the mined out pit with soil then plant trees. I would rather see a lake, or a dam. It will catch the flash flood during heavy rains, it will have water sports facilities like Caliraya lake, or CamSur Water sports, it will have resorts and hotels. Lots of new jobs will be created, and the LGU did not spend a single centavo digging that pit.
If I were the local government head of a mining area, I won't ask them to cover the mined out pit with soil then plant trees. I would rather see a lake, or a dam. It will catch the flash flood during heavy rains, it will have water sports facilities like Caliraya lake, or CamSur Water sports, it will have resorts and hotels. Lots of new jobs will be created, and the LGU did not spend a single centavo digging that pit.
Arcy Garcia sarap ng palitan ninyo....sana
tuluy-tuloy natin ito...salamat sa inyo..
Nonoy Oplas Hi Samson, I want to pursue the
idea of some of those mined out open pits, especially the deep ones (say 20
meters or deeper) be not resurrected as forest area but as dams and lakes, ala
Caliraya Lake, a man-made lake. Lots of sustainable jobs are created by that
huge lake -- tourism and hotels, water sports, fishing, vacation houses,
hydro-electric power, etc.
Because if this is possible/feasible, then an amendment to the Mining Act can be introduced to allow those LSMM to partner with tourism/hotel companies to develop those deep open pits. Government will keep receiving taxes and royalties, the locals will have new, more jobs. What do you think, thanks.
Because if this is possible/feasible, then an amendment to the Mining Act can be introduced to allow those LSMM to partner with tourism/hotel companies to develop those deep open pits. Government will keep receiving taxes and royalties, the locals will have new, more jobs. What do you think, thanks.
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See also:
Mining 23: On the Proposed 10 Percent Gross Revenue Tax, June 06, 2013
Mining 24: Casino-Hontiveros Mining Socialism is Off Tangent, June 25, 2013
Mining 25: Changes in Brazil Mining Taxation, July 02, 2013
Mining 23: On the Proposed 10 Percent Gross Revenue Tax, June 06, 2013
Mining 24: Casino-Hontiveros Mining Socialism is Off Tangent, June 25, 2013
Mining 25: Changes in Brazil Mining Taxation, July 02, 2013
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